No E-Book

Andreas Müller

• Herausgeber: BoD - Books on Demand
• Kategorie: Geisteswissenschaft
• Sprache: Englisch
• Veröffentlichungsjahr: 2024

Seitenzahl: 203

Beschreibung

"No" is the final, and perhaps most perplexing, chapter in the "No-Point" trilogy. If "No-Point Perspective" was the encyclopedia of nothingness for dummies and "No-Point" the professional's handbook, then "No" is the blank page at the end, the echo of a conversation that has finally run its course. Justin Allen and Andreas Müller, having exhausted all avenues of inquiry, meet face-to-face in Andreas' quaint village. The words dwindle, the silences grow longer, and the "no-point" reveals itself not as a concept to be grasped, but as what's apparently happening - life. With its minimalist title and even more minimalist content, "No" is a book that defies categorization. It's not about non-duality, it's not about spirituality, it's not even about nothing. It's simply "No," the final reduction of the original title of this trilogy. A fitting conclusion to a series of talks that started with a grand exploration and ended with a whisper, "No" invites you to step off the precipice of meaning and into the vast openness of what is.

Leseprobe

Acknowledgements from Andreas Müller:

Thanks to Vivien Thomas, Soham, Tony and Claire Parsons

Acknowledgements from Justin Allen:

Thanks to my family, close and far friends and Andreas

CONTENTS

Preface: September 21, 2024

PREFACE: JUSTIN ALLEN

Introduction: September 21, 2024

INTRODUCTION: ANDREAS MÜLLER

Talk 22: February 08, 2024

BREAD CRUMB

Talk 23: February 08, 2024

BREAD LOAF

Talk 24: February 09, 2024

COULD YOU BE A SPIRITUAL TEACHER?

Talk 24 1/2: February 09, 2024

HALF-TALK

September 21, 2024

JUSTIN ALLEN

PREFACE

This is the final installment in our trilogy of talks about nothing. Or, more accurately, talks that circle around the “no-point,” the elusive space where words and concepts dissolve. If the first book, “No-Point Perspective,” (2020) laid out the vast landscape of this terrain, and the second, “No-Point,” (2022) narrowed the focus (not really), then this one, “No,” (2024) is a pinprick of light, a whisper in the nothingness.

We’ve gone from fourteen talks to seven, and now to a mere three and a half (or maybe four, depending on how you count). We’ve moved from the disembodied realm of Skype and telephone to the tangible presence of Andreas’ village, a place where the rolling hills and quaint houses seem to reflect the ordinary we’re pointing towards.

Face to face, I found myself running out of things to say. The words that flowed so freely in previous conversations seemed to stumble and fall silent in the face of the actual. And yet, in that silence, something shifted. The “no-point” wasn’t just an idea anymore, it was the air we breathed, the space between us.

Even the title of this book became a point of contention, a playful dance around the edges of meaning. “No” seemed too absolute, too one-sided. “No(Yes)” hinted at the paradox, the refusal to settle on any fixed position. But in the end, we circled back to the simplicity of “No.” Not as a negation, but as a disregard to meaning or point, other than to follow the natural course of subtracting from our original title – No-Point Perspective.

This is not a book to be understood, it can’t be. It’s a final bow, a gentle nudge towards the precipice of the “no-point.” And then, a step off.

September 21, 2024

ANDREAS MÜLLER

INTRODUCTION

After having done two books already with Justin, I am very happy that this third and last book of our trilogy happened. I very much enjoyed Justin’s visit to my place and the open and warm atmosphere in which our conversations happened. Justin is a lovely person who’s certainly very interesting to talk to. His questions were sincere and showed his deep interest and resonance with this apparent issue that we call “non-duality.” Such a joy.

February 08, 2024

Talk 22

BREAD CRUMB

Justin Allen:

Okay, this is our first talk in person, and it’s the 8th of February. So this is our third time (22

nd

time) putting together some kind of a talk, but we’re doing it live together face to face. And I’m in your village. And just to describe it, it’s a small village in the south of Germany. And it’s what I would say is an average kind of apartment by German standards. And I came from Berlin, and we will do this for two days. So, this is our first conversation.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. Lovely. Welcome.

Justin Allen:

Thank you. I guess what occurred to me was that I hadn’t come prepared for this talk. And like the other ones that we had, I also didn’t really prepare stuff, but I had a motivation and I had things that I had wanted to ask for a long time. So I think this discussion might be a little bit unusual only because I don’t have contrived or premeditated provocations.

Andreas Müller:

(laughs) I haven’t noticed that the former ones were provocations, actually, but yes.

Justin Allen:

The other thing is that last night we met and we had dinner. And we talked about things, in a sense, unrelated to this topic, where I got a little bit more of a sense of your life. But from that point until now, and then on the train ride here, I had a couple of

thoughts and I wrote them down on my phone. I don’t want to bring them up yet. It doesn’t feel like the right time. But I have some. Those are the two contrived (laughs) premeditated things that I’ve thought of.

I thought it would be interesting to just start by saying that we’re here. We’re looking at each other, and there’s no difference between us, or there’s no difference in the sense that you are there and I’m here.

Andreas Müller:

Yes.

Justin Allen:

So, from your point of view, there’s no differentiation because there’s no two different entities that are here talking to each other.

Andreas Müller:

Absolutely. Yeah. One could say so. It’s not really my perspective on something or my viewpoint, but this experience isn’t happening here.

Justin Allen:

From your point of view, it’s not happening to me either, even if I claim that it is.

Andreas Müller:

Exactly. And what’s recognized is this claim. So this claim is what seems to be happening, but there isn’t any reality of that recognized.

Justin Allen:

So if there’s a distinction between us, it would only be, in this case, when I claim that I’m somebody here. And that’s an illusion from your point of view, that somebody is here claiming that they’re there.

Andreas Müller:

Exactly. And that this claim is real, and creates a real separation or a real difference. Even your claim to be someone doesn’t create a difference for me.

Justin Allen:

But the claim, me claiming that I’m here, is as real as the window and the...

Andreas Müller:

Absolutely, yes

Justin Allen:

But that I’m actually here is the thing that isn’t happening. But the window is still happening.

Andreas Müller:

Apparently. And you, and, all this body, Justin, claiming to be a “me,” that’s also like the window or like everything else. And it’s not right or wrong. When I say it’s an illusion that there is someone, I don’t mean that I think it’s wrong that you claim to be someone. There just isn’t anyone, even in that claim.

Justin Allen:

So, however, we go from there. That’s the foundation, that there’s apparently people claiming to be there, and you’re reacting to those claims. In your discussions, I mean.

Andreas Müller:

Absolutely, yeah, one could say so.

Justin Allen:

And I thought of this just five minutes before we started, but then I wanted to start with that because in order for us to have this conversation, there has to be some sense of somebody here claiming to be a person. Or if there wasn’t, let’s say that it’s another “no me” over here on the other side of the table from you. Where would this go?

Andreas Müller:

I have no idea. There is no uh, (laughs) predictable outcome. I don’t know how we would end up after those one and a half hours. But, yeah, there wouldn’t be seeking.

Justin Allen:

In general, what I’m saying is that it seems unlikely and not often happening that, for example, you and Tony Parsons are sitting across from each other and recording a conversation about nobody being here.

Andreas Müller:

I would say this wouldn’t happen.

Justin Allen:

And it hasn’t happened.

Andreas Müller:

It hasn’t happened, and I think it can’t happen, actually. It would be so off to have this idea to sit down together and have a conversation about non-duality, and even record it, thinking that others...No, I don’t see this at all.

Justin Allen:

So that’s what I want to point out is that our synopsis of the first book was about, you not being there, me being there, and us having a conversation. And this third conversation that we’re having now still has that same kind of pretext or foundation.

Andreas Müller:

Well, If you tell me now that you still claim to be someone, then it’s going to be...

Justin Allen:

But I think I also don’t know how this conversation will go, but, in a way, by default, I have to be the person that’s here. You’re not here, and I have to be the person who’s here to engage in a conversation with you about non-duality.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah, one could say so.

Justin Allen:

But aside from confessing if I’m here… (laughs)

Andreas Müller:

I mean, of course, there could still be a conversation about non-duality when there is “no one.” But, of course, it wouldn’t be meaningful or important. It would just be playing around with ideas and concepts and viewpoints, which are all illusory. It’s not that I never talk about non-dual concepts in my life outside of the meetings, but they don’t have any meaning. Talking could also be any other topic.

Justin Allen:

But they don’t have any meaning anyway, either.

Andreas Müller:

That’s true, of course.

Justin Allen:

By you using the word meaning, to me, that just implies that if it’s two “no me’s” or “non me’s” talking to each other about this topic, you said there’s no meaning. But if there’s “no me” talking to an audience of 10 people who are claiming to be there, there’s also no meaning.

Andreas Müller:

There’s also no meaning.

Justin Allen:

But by you saying that there’s no meaning with two “no me’s” talking, that implies that maybe there is meaning. And what I think you’re implying is that there’s meaning on the other side.

Andreas Müller:

Or the hope for meaning, or the illusion of meaning. Exactly. And, of course, the person thinks that to me, it’s somehow meaningful as well. As we sit together here, have those microphones, or in a meeting as if it is meaningful, because that’s why we meet consciously and talk about it.

Justin Allen:

That was an attempt in a way for me to try to make a definition of our roles or who we are here talking to each other. And even though it’s not a claim, I’m going to use the word claim because there’s a lack of a word to express this. But you are claiming to not be there.

Andreas Müller:

No.

Justin Allen:

But you know what I mean. (laughs)

Andreas Müller:

(laughs) I know what you mean, but that’s just not the case.

Justin Allen:

But it’s a case that you would say, “I’m just not here. There’s nobody here.”

Andreas Müller:

There’s just no illusion to be someone.

Justin Allen:

That’s why I’m using the word “claim.” It’s not that you have to define yourself or try to explain, but you also equally have to try to explain yourself and describe it to communicate with other people.

Andreas Müller:

But only in this context. The person would regard it as a claim that I present my experience here, which then would be in the absence or not being someone. And I’m sitting here saying, “This is my truth.” It’s not like that, of course,

Justin Allen:

It’s not like that, but you can’t avoid it in having conversations with people.

Andreas Müller:

Absolutely.

Justin Allen:

And so acknowledging that, then going forward, you’re on the side of the table saying that there’s nobody there, of being in this category in a way of accepting or acknowledging that there’s just...

Andreas Müller:

In the meeting, so to speak, that’s the accepted story.

Justin Allen:

Yes. And on the other side of the table are people that think they’re there, that there’s an identity and something there.

Andreas Müller:

Mostly, yeah.

Justin Allen:

Let’s just say 90 percent, to avoid the exception to the rule.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah, most people are seeking...

Justin Allen:

To keep it in a more dual setting, is that they claim to be there. You don’t claim to be there.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah, this claim isn’t happening here.

Justin Allen:

So even that, you could say there’s no claim, on your side of the table. And then there’s a claim on the other side of the table.

Andreas Müller:

Exactly, and the claim is, I am someone, we are someone. We are seeking, we need an answer.

Justin Allen:

And then to try to define myself in this scenario, then I would say that... (laughs)

Andreas Müller:

(laughs) Yeah, who are you?

Justin Allen:

Yeah. I would want to probably… (know/hear the) answer you give, but I still think it’s different. And my answer would be…that I wouldn’t want to be held responsible for claiming that I’m here or not here. Meaning that I find it difficult... I feel like you can confidently go to a meeting and sit in front of 10 people and tell them that there’s nothing there. There’s nobody.

Andreas Müller:

No. And that’s the thing, it’s exactly not like that. It’s not the same, because it’s not that I don’t want to define myself either this way or the other way. There is just no one here. But I don’t go to a meeting and I’m confident with that claim. I don’t go to a meeting and think beforehand, “Oh great, I told them that I’m no one and stuff.” It doesn’t happen actually, so it’s rather a response than confident knowledge. Because I also can’t say that there is no one.

Justin Allen:

Okay.

Andreas Müller:

And I can’t say that exactly because there is no one. It’s so direct.

Justin Allen:

But for example, if I’m hanging out with my brother, who I’ve known my whole life, and my brother is talking to me as if he believes that he’s there and he’s dealing with some problem or even something

that’s not a problem. Whatever he’s relating to, it’s clear that he’s relating to it from a point of view that he thinks that he’s there and he’s talking to me and maybe asking me for my point of view or advice. I don’t know if I would say to him, “You are not there.” I just wouldn’t have this kind of confidence that it’s one way or the other. Do you know what I mean?

Andreas Müller:

Mm hmm.

Justin Allen:

It can seem obvious in a way that, yeah, nobody’s there. I would feel confident saying that that tree’s there, even though I can entertain... also the possibility if it’s really there. But saying that there’s somebody inside...it’s a little bit like God. Like for me, even from very early on, this idea of God never made sense to me. If a God-like figure is there or not, it’s just Irrelevant.

Andreas Müller:

Irrelevant, Yeah, you don’t know, but it’s irrelevant.

Justin Allen:

It’s like, air. In a way, air doesn’t exist to me. You can’t touch it, you can’t see it, and it just doesn’t play any role in my life at all,

Andreas Müller:

Okay. (laughs) Though you are living from it. But I know what you mean.

Justin Allen:

Or blackness.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah, I know what you mean. You can’t...

Justin Allen:

And the tree, because I can touch it and I’ve done things with it and I can see it, then it’s more there to me than God would be, let’s say.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah, I understand. Yeah.

Justin Allen:

I can understand this idea of a “me” in the sense

that I could say I felt very powerfully that I’m there at times. If something happens to me and I am going to the hospital and I have my leg cut, I think this is happening to me that my legs cut and the pain is happening to me. And then I could also be somebody that simultaneously is experiencing that and thinking that they’re experiencing that, but also not sure if I’m there really experiencing this or if it’s happening. I just wonder... you say it’s so obvious that nobody’s there, that there’s not an experience.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. It’s so natural. Let’s put it like this.

Justin Allen:

And for me, it’s natural that God’s not there and never existed, will never exist. All this is just natural. I don’t spend any time questioning that.

Andreas Müller:

It doesn’t play a role in your life basically, yeah.

Justin Allen:

And then in your meetings, some people ask you questions. And it seems obvious in the way that you’re talking about a “me,” like the way that you define what it’s like to be a “me,” that there are people who identify and feel like there’s a “me.” And then it sometimes seems like there are people that... I don’t know if accept is the right word because accept still implies that there’s a “me” they’re accepting. But they seem to get it.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah, absolutely.

Justin Allen:

Where, I feel like they wouldn’t confidently say, “ I know I’m here.” They might still feel themselves there in some way.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah, but the conviction about “I am here” is kind of already broken.

Justin Allen:

Exactly. And the way that we just talked about it, then I could imagine somebody hearing this and

start to think, ah, there are stages. So you’re there as a “me.” And then at some point, you’re like, “Oh, maybe this “me” thing that I’ve been feeling isn’t...”

Andreas Müller:

(laughs) Yeah.

Justin Allen:

That type of person is in stage two. And then stage three is maybe where they start to become disillusioned with that sense of “me,” where they react angrily. And before, they would always feel internally, like, “Oh, I’m angry, and this shouldn’t happen to me.” And then they detach themselves a little bit from that where they still have anger, but then it just doesn’t feel the same way as before, where they’re holding on to it in some way.

Andreas Müller:

Or where it had a deep impact on what they think their life is or something.

Justin Allen:

But then they start to say, okay, well, I’m still eating food. I’m not stopping eating food, and I’m still getting angry sometimes, and I still want to move to another location sometimes. But that sense of there’s a “me” or that there’s somebody there that wants to do all this stuff isn’t happening the same way as it used to be happening. Because of that, then they can’t claim that they’re there anymore.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah.

Justin Allen:

And that setting, then that would be stage three or four. I don’t know what number I’m on. (laughs)

Andreas Müller:

Yeah.

Justin Allen:

And then if there’s a final stage after that, it means that that “me,” if it was just there as a little thing, isn’t there anymore. It’s completely gone. And then they’re “you.”

Andreas Müller:

(laughs) On the final stage. Oh yeah, I can easily imagine how many of those stories about stages and stuff came from that. It just isn’t like that.

Justin Allen:

But also, the person would never know.

Andreas Müller:

That’s the other thing, yeah. Sometimes I tell my story, I guess you know it, with the last two years of fading out or something. I tell this story like that, looking back. But it was never my experience when I was still someone, or in those two years of fading out. And it’s so easy for the person to talk. It’s to look for signs and to talk itself into a stage and think that I’m closer or less close. And all of that doesn’t exist.

Justin Allen:

But that’s what I mean too, is somebody claiming for sure that they’re there…maybe if you take Santa Claus, you wrote a book about Santa Claus, right?

Andreas Müller:

Yeah, the thing is that there’s just no advantage in that. So, that’s why with this stage thing... but of course, there are, apparently, differences and changes in people’s lives. As you said, when they met this message, they felt like a full-on “me,” so to speak, and then after a while, they can’t keep up that claim as easily anymore as before.

Justin Allen:

And then at some point, maybe they can’t keep that claim up at all. And then, they’d be like “you.”

Andreas Müller:

This would be liberation then.

Justin Allen:

Yeah.

Andreas Müller:

There wouldn’t be anyone there anymore.

Justin Allen:

But as you say, and as we already said in this meeting today, there’s nobody there ever. So even when there’s this, what you call this apparent energy claiming from contraction to be there, it’s not

there. The claim is apparently happening. Just like we said, the tree is apparently happening, but that there’s some substance behind it is never happening.

Andreas Müller:

That’s why this whole idea of stage doesn’t make sense. The personal world is so different, apparently, from the natural reality. So, when the person hears stages and this process, it already has this idea that there is an actual goal and that I’m on a path towards that. And that’s just not happening. Also in those apparent stages, or those apparent states, a full-on “me” and less “me” or less beliefs, it’s still not a stage on a path towards fulfillment or wholeness, or the actual goal, which would be not being anyone. All of that just is what seems to be happening. And all of that just is the impersonal natural reality.

Justin Allen:

I think before it was more confusing and maybe now it’s more interesting, as a concept, is thinking about how when liberation apparently happens, it’s not liberation because you were liberated the whole time. It’s kind of like, you’re just saying that there’s no life ever.

Andreas Müller:

Yes.

Justin Allen:

There’s no life ever.

Andreas Müller:

There’s no me, ever. Yeah.

Justin Allen:

So there’s also no death ever.

Andreas Müller:

Yes, exactly.

Justin Allen:

That also means there’s no liberation ever.

Andreas Müller:

Absolutely.

Justin Allen:

That’s why I’m using the word “claim” just as a way to differentiate things. But from your point of view, in reality, there’s no differentiation.

Andreas Müller:

Exactly. And there is no liberation. And there is no claim here that I’m “no one” in opposition to your claim saying you are someone. Those aren’t two claims that are opposed to each other.

Justin Allen:

If there were stages. If you just entertained the idea and said, okay, there… seem to be five stages that the person goes through. When the person reaches the final stage, they then realize there are no stages.

Andreas Müller:

Exactly.

Justin Allen:

And then if the person is in a stage, it means that something is there. It’s claiming to be there.

Andreas Müller:

Exactly. In all those illusory stages, there would always be someone there claiming to be in one way or the other.

Justin Allen:

But in every stage, equally, no matter what, the person just isn’t there in the first place.

Andreas Müller:

There isn’t a real person there, because this illusion doesn’t happen to someone. Exactly.

Justin Allen:

The stages, even from your perspective, are meaningless. But even from the person that thinks that they’re in stages and going through stages, it’s also in the reality that, from your point of view, it’s equally as meaningless, even for that person. Because that person isn’t there.

Andreas Müller:

Absolutely. It’s a dreamt meaning that the illusion adds to that imagined state. It is meaningless, really. It’s all meaningless. And those stages don’t

mean anything and they aren’t bringing someone closer to wholeness or it’s just not happening.

That’s the funny thing, I think, because the seeker always thinks, “Yeah, my experience has some kind of reality.” Yeah, there are people who, 100%, believe in being someone, and then there are some who don’t do that much anymore. The seeker would instantly say, “Yeah, but that’s better if you don’t believe in it 100%. Isn’t that closer to what you talk about? Isn’t that closer to not being someone? Isn’t it kind of meaningful in that sense?” And no, it isn’t. It just isn’t. It never is meaningful. And there never is someone on a path, no matter how much this is believed or...

Justin Allen:

I think that you brought this up in our first 14 talks, but it could have been the second seven talks. Either way, it’s stuck with me. When I have friends that are interested in this topic and they listen to you, or maybe they listen to somebody else. On their own, nothing to do with me. And when they meet me, sometimes they might want to talk about something. And then sometimes it happens that I come to this (message). I relate to them this conversation that you and I have. To put it simply, I think your line is something like, “When the “me” died, then I could be me.”

Andreas Müller:

Mm-Hmm. Yes. (laughs)

Justin Allen: