No-Point E-Book

Andreas Müller

• Herausgeber: Books on Demand
• Kategorie: Geisteswissenschaft
• Sprache: Englisch
• Veröffentlichungsjahr: 2022

Seitenzahl: 262

Beschreibung

No-Point (2022) might be a tighter exploration and continuation of what was explored in No-Point Perspective (2020). Justin Allen and Andreas Müller continue their talks about nothing and still have nothing really to say; even less to say in fact. Allen and Müller are still able to turn something like talking about the weather, or in this case, nothing, into an exploration. The conversations took place from January 24, 2021 to December 21, 2021 and have been transcribed and thoughtfully edited to maintain their casual energy.

Leseprobe

Acknowledgements from Andreas Müller:

Thanks to Nadine and Soham, Tony and Claire Parsons

Acknowledgements from Justin Allen:

Thanks to my family, close and far friends and Andreas

CONTENTS

Preface: March 31, 2022 PREFACE: JUSTIN ALLEN

Introduction: March 31, 2022 INTRODUCTION: ANDREAS MÜLLER

Talk 15: January 24, 2021 THISNESS

Talk 16: February 28, 2021 WHAT’S REALLY REAL?

Talk 17: April 21, 2021 I ROBOT

Talk 18: May 21, 2021 POST-LIFE

Talk 19: June 24, 2021 I WAS NEVER HAPPY BEING ME

Talk 20: July 21, 2021 EVEN THE MICROSCOPE CONFIRMS YOU’RE NOT THERE

Talk 21: December 21, 2021 (winter solstice) PLACEBO

March 31, 2022 JUSTIN ALLEN

PREFACE

This is a continuation of talks about nothing between Andreas and myself. Again, there is no meaning and nothing to gain or learn from these 7 additional talks. Not that the talks from No-Point Perspective (2020) offered something, but this series offers even less; less talks, less pages and less paintings, but it may more tightly explore the topic of “no one” being there.

Our last talk from No-Point Perspective (2020) happened on March 23rd, 2020 and our first talk for No-Point (2022) took place on January 24th, 2021. Almost one year after our last talk from NPP (2020), we started to talk again, for no clear or real reason, they just seemed to happen and were recorded and shared live and now transcribed. Having already covered teachers and gurus and various “misunderstandings” from our first set of talks, this series is possibly more relaxed and, dare I say, focused.

It is just incredibly enjoyable to talk about nothing with someone that also seems to enjoy talking about nothing. We have created a book that has essentially recorded “small-talk,” with even less meaning than the dreaded conversation you may have with someone about the weather. This series of talks took place from January 24th, 2021 to December 21st, 2021.

March 31, 2022 ANDREAS MÜLLER

INTRODUCTION

After having published No-Point-Perspective in 2020, there did not seem to be a point in making another book. We already covered a lot in the first book and seemed to have approached this (non-)issue from various angles. However, Justin and I had the energy to continue our conversations and so, 7 more talks happened. We slightly changed the format for these talks, as they were not done privately via Skype, but broadcasted online, so people could watch us talk in real-time. Of course, this may not make a difference for you as a reader.

I love that our conversations continued in spite of there being no-point to them. Enjoyable as before, covering other aspects here and there, these conversations are the very no-thing apparently happening through the talks transcribed in this book.

January 24th, 2021 Talk 15

THISNESS

Andreas Müller:

Exactly. All right. I think that’s about it regarding the explanation (laughing). I’m ready.

Justin Allen:

All right (both laughing). We don’t have a plan but I did write a question before.

Andreas Müller:

All right.

Justin Allen:

So, in that sense, it’s a little bit planned. (laughing)

Andreas Müller:

Okay. Well, when we talked two days ago, there was no plan.

Justin Allen:

Yeah (laughing). This is 30 minutes before this conversation plan.

Andreas Müller:

That’s almost no plan.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. I wrote it down, but I’ll be able to paraphrase it once I read it again. You start off a lot of times when you talk, you say, “So this is it.” Right (waiting for confirmation)? And we could boil it down to that statement that this is it and this is all there is.

Justin Allen:

And what you’re pointing to when you say this or a kind of logical question would be, “What do you mean by ‘this’? What is ‘this’”? And the way that I would try to paraphrase that, is that in this context, it would be the blue wall behind you and the

curtain, and the bed frame, yourself with the shirt (referring to the actual scene behind Andreas).

Justin Allen:

And then the same going on here, a bookshelf behind me, our voices. And that’s what “this” is. Yeah (waiting for confirmation)? And then to that, you would say that even though this is it, what I just described as “this,” it’s all apparent. It’s apparently “this.”

Andreas Müller:

Yes. Yes.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. So, it’s apparently this. And then for the majority of us...

Andreas Müller:

… (laughing and waiting in excited expectation) …

Justin Allen:

No, but I’m saying something different now. For the majority of us, there’s also what’s happening in this “this,” is an apparent “me.”

Andreas Müller:

Yes. One could say so. The illusion to be someone. Yes.

Justin Allen:

Right. And that would also be part of the description of “this.”

Andreas Müller:

This would also be what seems to be happening. Absolutely. Yes.

Justin Allen:

And then conversely, for the minority, there is an apparent “no me” happening.

Andreas Müller:

There isn’t anyone. Yeah. Well, you can’t say that because it’s not really “a happening,” but yes, there isn’t anyone there. Yes.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. Or there’s nothing happening.

Andreas Müller:

Or not the illusion. Yeah.

Justin Allen:

Okay. So, for the majority, there’s the illusion apparently happening.

Andreas Müller:

That’s what seems to be happening.

Justin Allen:

And that’s part of the “this,” the “thisness.”

Andreas Müller:

Absolutely. That’s wholeness. Yes.

Justin Allen:

And a “me” not happening, or an illusion of a “me” not happening is also a part of “this.”

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. It’s not really a part of, but yes. That’s also what seems to be happening. Exactly.

Justin Allen:

When I put it that way, then for me at least, it really evens the playing field (both laughing). It just takes away any potential excitement. Kind of like how you might previously imagine or how it could be imagined, what you’re talking about.

Andreas Müller:

Exactly. Yes. What we speak about is very unexciting because it’s all there is and it’s natural in a way.

Justin Allen:

The way that I just put it… in that context, at least for me, it makes it so (looking for the word flat) ... It’s not unique... It also doesn’t feel as mysterious in a way because it’s almost like nothing different is being said and there’s no difference (laughing).

Andreas Müller:

Well, in the end, that’s what’s constantly being said.

Justin Allen:

Right.

Andreas Müller:

There is no difference between anything and... Not as a teaching, but of course, there is no difference. And the illusion of “I am,” that I’m “me” and I’m different, and Andreas is different from me, and wholeness is different from me is a complete illusion, of course.

Andreas Müller:

What’s being pointed to is very ordinary and normal. The natural reality, so to speak, is normal. It’s nothing special. The person, so to speak, might get excited about it with the idea of, “I will get that. It’s great and I will have it. I will own it.” That’s the excitement basically.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. The potential for excitement. Yeah.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. Exactly.

Justin Allen:

But it’s really clear when you say, at least in that structure that I just put it in, saying that “this” is it, this is all there is, and part of... Maybe that’s not the right word to use, but part of that description of “this” and this is it, is also the apparent “me’s” that are apparently happening, and then the nothing happening or the non-illusion of a “me,” which isn’t happening but that’s also in this description of “this.”

Andreas Müller:

So to speak. Yes.

Justin Allen:

So then in that sense, automatically, there’s no hierarchy, there’s no separation, there’s no one better than the other.

Andreas Müller:

Not a single bit. Absolutely. This is it exactly as it is. The person, of course, thinks that I want to show something that the person can see, “Ah, it’s this,” in order for “this” to make a difference.

Andreas Müller:

The person would hope, “When I get that, then there will be a difference.” But no, that’s not what is meant. It’s exactly “this,” exactly as it is. That’s all there is, so to speak.

Justin Allen:

Yeah.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. Yep.

Justin Allen:

Okay.

Andreas Müller:

That’s why there is no message, so to speak. It’s not saying this to anyone in order to create a difference.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. Because also, there can be no difference (laughing).

Andreas Müller:

It can’t be. There just isn’t. Yes. And the pointing to “this” doesn’t make a difference either. The person is constantly complaining about that, “Nothing changes. I’m listening to this and nothing happens...” (laughing). Yes, there is no change really.

Justin Allen:

Yeah.

Andreas Müller:

Or difference.

Justin Allen:

Okay. And the next thing is... I guess this is similar to what we just talked about, but it’s put a different way. I wrote, “As obvious as it is that someone is there… (pause)”

Justin Allen:

If you have these kinds of conversations, and we mentioned this in the book (referring to

No-Point Perspective

), but it’s so obvious that there’s someone there for the majority of the people.

Andreas Müller:

Yes.

Justin Allen:

When they try to define themselves or to define what it is (what they are), you (they or someone) can’t really do it, but your final sentence if you’ve been questioned to answer, “What are you?” You just say, “Well, it’s just obvious that I’m there. It’s so obvious. It’s natural.” (What a typical answer is)

Justin Allen:

And then you (someone) might give reasons. You say, “Well, it’s obvious that I’m there because I’m

here hearing myself talk and I’m emitting words and I know what happened yesterday and one minute ago.” But you (they or someone) can’t really pinpoint what you (actually) are or what it is that you (actually) are. You just know that you “are.”

Andreas Müller:

Yes. Exactly. Yes.

Justin Allen:

And then the same as, at least how I’ve heard you talk about what it’s like over there (referring to Andreas on the other side of the Zoom meeting) for you is that it’s also obvious (laughing) that there’s “no one” there.

Andreas Müller:

Well, yeah. I sometimes say that, but not really.

Justin Allen:

I’m not trying to trap you… where you say...

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. I understand. Yeah. It’s just the word “obviousness” doesn’t really fit there anymore because the person would imply obviousness exactly with this knowing “I am,” with this kind of awareness thing. And in that sense, there is no obviousness that there isn’t anyone. There just isn’t anyone.

Justin Allen:

But it’s not just been said by you. It’s been said by the other people that are pointing to this topic, pointing to this “nothingness.” Because you get questioned a lot about what it’s like for you or what happened to you.

Justin Allen:

For you, it’s like the story of “me” and then there’s nothing after that point. But then trying to explain… when you try to describe it or explain it, it’s just obvious. A sentence that you might say is that it’s obvious that there’s “no one” there.

Andreas Müller:

Yes.

Justin Allen:

It’s just natural.

Andreas Müller:

It’s natural. That’s what this description of “obvious” tries to say.

Justin Allen:

But that’s not so dissimilar to the... It’s dissimilar in the sense, if I were to say (crosstalk)...

Andreas Müller:

I know. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, absolutely.

Justin Allen:

One could say, “It’s obvious that I’m here.” The one difference is that it’s obvious for the experience of a “me” where I’m saying it’s obvious, but aside from that, it’s also just... Even without the experience of a “me,” it’s how I would say it’s just natural that I’m here. It’s natural that there’s an “I” that I refer to and the sense of “me” that I would refer to.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah.

Justin Allen:

And I feel like you can switch it around and say that’s how you would have to always describe it. You’d still have to... It’d be different because there wouldn’t be a “me” there that it’s obvious for. But still, it’s obvious and natural.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. I understand. Yeah. In a way, both are the natural reality. One can’t really say that one is natural and one isn’t. It’s actually exactly what we talked about in the beginning. Both just is what seems to be happening.

Justin Allen:

Right.

Andreas Müller:

Absolutely.

Justin Allen:

For me, I don’t know why I was thinking about this but I was just thinking about how... If people speak about enlightenment from, let’s say the spiritual or religious frame of reference (laughing), then they might say that it became clear that there was just

“awareness” or they would say that there was an “enlightenment,” … “There was a moment and I became one or one with something, or I just wasn’t there anymore or something.”

Justin Allen:

And they would say that it was an experience and it was an obvious experience, and it was a shift or a change.

Andreas Müller:

There was a change. Exactly.

Justin Allen:

Yeah.

Andreas Müller:

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Justin Allen:

And then they would say, “And then ‘this’ became the new point of view or the new perspective or the new...”

Andreas Müller:

Truth. The new experience. The new reality for them, so to speak. Yeah.

Justin Allen:

And for me, I get more... Based on what I just said or what we just talked about is that there isn’t a change and it just stays natural. So just like how it’s obvious... Like for you, there’s not a change.

Andreas Müller:

Yes, absolutely. Yes.

Justin Allen:

And there can’t be. By the way that you’re describing this, there can’t be a change because there was “no one” there ever in the first place to have transformed or changed into something else.

Andreas Müller:

Yes, absolutely.

Justin Allen:

And that’s why, to me, just like this sense of, if you say the “me” and then take the “no me,” … It’s natural in both cases and it’s obvious in both cases.

Andreas Müller:

Yes. One could say so. Oh, absolutely. Yes.

Justin Allen:

And that is also part of the kind of un-excitement of it or the extraordinary ordinariness of it, is that it all just stays and remains obvious (laughing).

Andreas Müller:

Oh, absolutely. In a way, the claim saying, “Well, I’m still ‘me,’ I’m still a seeker, so to speak,” is as much an honest report as saying, “Well, there is no one.” In that sense, again, both is natural and both are the same. Absolutely. It’s (crosstalk) what it is, an illusion, because there never really is anyone. But yeah.

Justin Allen:

And both are obvious in both cases.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. You can’t really compare those because the obviousness that the person would speak of is an awareness, describing a circumstance. And there being “no one” is not really a circumstance, it’s not the opposite of being someone.

Justin Allen:

Yeah.

Andreas Müller:

So when I speak of obvious, actually, I also try to take it back immediately because obviousness immediately is somehow mixed up with being aware of. And in the end, I’m not running around in some kind of obviousness. In the end, there actually is no obviousness.

Justin Allen:

But it seems similar to the experience of a “me” ... It seems like, fundamentally, you can talk about how it’s obvious that “I am” or that there’s a “me,” but when you talk about it, that’s where it becomes a little bit like you give cause and effect or you say it’s obvious because of this reason.

Andreas Müller:

Yes, of course. But the person lives just in this reality.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. It’s natural that they’re there or at least that that sense is there.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. Of course.

Justin Allen:

They couldn’t describe it any better than you. Really, a person, an apparent person trying to describe themselves is just as failing as you trying to describe...

Andreas Müller:

Oh, of course. But the person wouldn’t notice really. The person would somehow still believe there is “someone,” and this “someone” is somehow knowable or experienceable.

Andreas Müller:

But yes, I know what you mean. Practically, they would fail. They would tell their name and who they are. In the end, they’d end up saying, “Well, I’m pure awareness, but I don’t know what this actually is,” which is one of those spiritual teachings. And they say what you are is pure awareness, but they also admit that you don’t know what this actually is.

Justin Allen:

Yeah.

Andreas Müller:

But in their teaching, this doesn’t count for very much.

Justin Allen:

But even outside of the teaching or a teacher, that (natural) obviousness of there being an “I,” it’s kind of like when you try to talk about the sense of “me” as a “me”, you can’t do it. You fail at it.

Andreas Müller:

Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. That’s the thing. Knowing oneself is an illusion. No one knows themselves.

Justin Allen:

Right.

Andreas Müller:

And in a funny way, as you say, when the person tries to describe itself, it may even come to the

point that it can’t really do it but it would still be from a separate perspective. But yes, knowing oneself is a dream. No one knows themselves.

Justin Allen:

But that’s kind of what I’m trying to get at, is that because it’s so obvious, it’s equally obvious to the “me” that they’re there, but also that they’re not there or that there’s not something. No (seeing the expression of Andreas)?

Andreas Müller:

No. Because for the person, there’s only presence. And the rest would be already conclusions, understanding, noticing. But it would never really... Even in the noticing that it can’t know itself, the person would somehow confirm itself.

Justin Allen:

And let’s say that it apparently happens that this person really can no longer confirm themselves, where they can’t even say, “I’m not there anymore.” Because that’s just not something that they can rely on anymore that there’s an “I” there to even say that they’re there or not.

Andreas Müller:

Well, this would just be the melting away of the separate energy, but it wouldn’t...

Justin Allen:

But that’s what I mean. That’s what I’m trying to say is that imagine that there was a “me” and the “me” started to go, “Is there a ‘me’”? What is this “me”? And it feels so obvious that they’re there, but at the same time, it starts to feel “obvious” that they’re not there.

Andreas Müller:

Yes. This can happen. Yes. Yes.

Justin Allen:

And that is such a... (crosstalk) …

Andreas Müller:

(crosstalk) … half-dead or half-alive then.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. But they’re still the same. You know what I mean?

Andreas Müller:

Oh. It would just be what apparently happens. Absolutely. It would be...

Justin Allen:

Let’s say that you did… for lack of a better word… this isn’t the right way to say it, but that you transition from an apparent “me” to a “no me.”

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. Fade out. That’s basically my story. This would be my story in the end.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. But the fade-out would be so natural, it wouldn’t be a change. You know what I mean? It would just be the exact same obviousness of... The reality of the “me” is it’s unknowable, even for a “me” or a “no me.”

Andreas Müller:

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It is natural. The illusion to be someone is natural and the end of that is natural too. Nothing changes in them.

Justin Allen:

Right. But nothing changes also because even as convinced as you (someone) are that you’re there, (crosstalk)...

Andreas Müller:

You don’t know it. Oh, absolutely. Oh, totally (laughing). Totally. That’s what I mean, that someone knows themselves is an illusion. It never happened. Let’s say through your whole life, you never knew who you are and that you are and what you are. So, yes, this will not change. Exactly. One could say that how it was all the time will not change.

Justin Allen:

Right.

Andreas Müller:

But this isn’t really logical because, of course, from the sense of the person, there is constantly this illusion. As you say, seen from the person, one’s own presence is so natural, you don’t even really think about that.

Justin Allen:

Yeah.

Andreas Müller:

Even when you’re working with those concepts of “me,” “no me,” it’s so natural that “I am” and that I’m on a path and that this is my life, and that “me”/ “no me” is what I’m interested in and all, but nothing changes. Absolutely.

Justin Allen:

And what’s artificial in that? ... If it’s just natural that you’re not there, then the artificial is? … the explaining and the describing of how you are there?

Andreas Müller:

Well, artificial is a story because nothing’s really artificial in that sense.

Justin Allen:

That’s the story. If you were to say, “I’m here because when I look at my photos from 10 years ago, I see a difference and I have memories that verify that there’s been this change, and that I’ve been witness to the changing,” that’s artificial.

Andreas Müller:

Well, no, the assumption that there really is someone who experiences all of that.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. To experience that is artificial... You’re already explaining...

Andreas Müller:

Something that doesn’t happen, that doesn’t have any reality.

Justin Allen:

Right.

Andreas Müller:

Yes. Yeah.

Justin Allen:

I think that’s a better word to use is artificial than... What’s the word, the other option? Illusion.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah.

Justin Allen:

I like artificial better than illusion.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. Yeah. Illusion has this connotation in a way. It’s also the spiritual connotation. And it still sounds as if there is something in a way.

Justin Allen:

But artificial would be a good alternative.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. But it’s (crosstalk) description, I think, because artificial has this negative connotation. No one wants artificial in a way (laughing). Artificial has a bad reputation.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. But it would be a good alternative word as far as they can be used in the same context.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. I do sometimes.

Justin Allen:

I just wanted to say, what you mean by artificial is artificial is the illusion and the illusion is the... Generally, the illusion is the dream and the dream is that I’m there. And when you say, “I’m there,” that comes from trying to describe or understand or know this obviousness, which is, in this case...

Andreas Müller:

Well, it’s just an experience. The person would just experience itself and say, “Well, I’m here. I am.” And yes, it immediately seems like a circumstance that’s known. I am.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. You don’t just say, “I am.” Right? You say, “I am,” generally, then you’re giving reasons why you are.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. That comes afterwards. Actually, I would say there can be this sense of “I am” without any kind of processing, at least for moments, for a while, and then comes the processing. And pretty quickly, you end up telling yourself a whole story about the world.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. And that would be the illusion and the artificialness of that person’s...

Andreas Müller:

Yes, it’s actually this first sense of presence which would be artificial.

Justin Allen:

Then the other things you’re just saying are?

Andreas Müller:

Apparently artificial. That’s the thing.

Justin Allen:

Well, the first thing’s apparently artificial.

Andreas Müller:

Again.

Justin Allen:

The first sense of “I am” is artificial.

Andreas Müller:

Yes. But as a description. Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

Justin Allen:

That’s an interesting point for me now, that the very initial illusion or the initial artificial moment is the “I am” sense.

Andreas Müller:

Sense. Not the story. Yeah. Actually, that’s already information from the brain when you tell the story. Well, “I am,” that’s already processed. That’s actually already the sense of presence processed in the story.

Justin Allen:

Right. So let’s just call the very first thing a sense.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah.

Justin Allen:

Then the second thing is the story (both laughing).

Andreas Müller:

Yes. And the story gets more and more...

Justin Allen:

Multiplied. The story gets multiplied.

Andreas Müller:

Yes.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. Okay. So the first thing is, as soon as there’s a sensed “I” or a sensed “me,” that’s the first or that’s the initial illusion or that’s the illusion.

Andreas Müller:

Well, it’s an apparent illusion.

Justin Allen:

That’s the apparent illusion and the apparent artificial beginning.

Andreas Müller:

Yes.

Justin Allen:

And then following that comes, exponentially, the story.

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. One could say so. Yeah.

Justin Allen:

The story, by nature of its foundation, its foundation being an illusion, then the story is also an illusion just because of that. Okay.

Andreas Müller:

Exactly. As this first sense of presence is illusory, everything that seems to come out of that or circle around the sense of presence is just as illusory as the sense of presence.

Justin Allen:

So then, for a “me” that’s had that sense, that initial sense, “I am,” and then goes about a life, and then the life creates 20 or 40 years of illusory stories.

Andreas Müller:

Yes (laughing). Yes.

Justin Allen:

And then there’s somebody (laughing)...

Andreas Müller:

(laughing) ...years of believing some stuff. Yeah.

Justin Allen:

Yeah. And then if there’s a moment, and using you as an example, if there’s a case where the illusion dies, right, the illusion stops, and the illusion stops because that initial illusion of “I am” is no longer there.

Andreas Müller:

Yes.

Justin Allen:

That sense, “I am,” is gone.

Andreas Müller:

Yes.

Justin Allen:

Then from that point on, your life goes on for another 20 or 40 years with things happening identically to the other people in the sense that life still is happening.

Andreas Müller:

So to speak.

Justin Allen:

You have a family and...

Andreas Müller:

There’s food and waking up in the morning and going to bed at night.

Justin Allen:

But there’s no more illusion happening because there is no longer that initial illusion of “I am.”

Andreas Müller:

Exactly. There is no waking up anymore. There is no coming into presence anymore. Yeah. Yep. (Both laughing) What we were just describing was life and death (laughing). The apparent birth, then you have a life full of stories and realities, and then it just drops and it’s over.

Justin Allen:

And there’s no apparent difference between your case and somebody else’s case in the sense that life is also still happening for them the exact same way as it’s happening to you.

Andreas Müller:

Yes and no, because one can’t really separate that. In a way, yes, and in a way, no. Because when there is the sense of “I am,” life seems to be circled around this “I am” and life seems to be about finding fulfillment. You can’t really separate it. You know what I mean?

Justin Allen:

Yeah.

Andreas Müller:

It’s not the same because there is no attempt to fulfill myself anymore, there is no reading books in

order to find an answer. There is just no seeking anymore.

Andreas Müller:

And somehow, apparently, life is according to that. But you can’t just separate life. But in a way, both would be still the same. Both would still be what seems to be happening.

Justin Allen:

Right. Because when you give your talks...

Andreas Müller:

One more sentence. But the person, of course, seeing me how I live, the person would just say, “Well, that’s very ordinary and not special at all. Maybe even boring.”

Justin Allen:

Yeah. You’re not living up to their expectations (laughing).

Andreas Müller:

Not so far (laughing).

Justin Allen:

But when you’re giving your talks, you’re there talking to an audience of, maybe 10 people. And assuming that there’s apparent illusory “I am’s” happening for those 10 people, there’s no difference in the sense that you’re all there in the same space.

Andreas Müller:

Oh, it’s all wholeness. Absolutely. It would just be an illusion that it’s otherwise. Oh, absolutely. That’s why there is never anything to reach or to attain. Not a single bit. It would just be part of an illusion, but it’s not happening. No one is different. No one is separate. Absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah.

Justin Allen:

And when you go about your life, for example, you still say the words, “I believe.”

Andreas Müller:

Sometimes. Yeah.

Justin Allen:

You probably don’t do it in the context of these

talks, but I’m sure when you’re at home and you say something like, “Yeah, I believe that’s the right answer.” (laughing)

Andreas Müller:

Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah, of course. Why not? Yeah.

Justin Allen:

So that’s what I mean in the sense that you still go about life with belief, not beliefs like, “This is going to fulfill me and end my search,” because there’s no longer a search, but there still is a belief in the sense, when you turn the TV on, you believe...

Justin Allen:

Or when you take your remote and you press the on button, you believe that (laughing) your TV’s going to turn on (laughing). You’re going about your life in a totally... Almost un-different way as beforehand.

Andreas Müller:

Oh, absolutely. Oh, totally. Yeah. Just the assumption dropped that at some point in the future, it will be different. No, it’ll never be different. This dream dropped that it can be different.

Andreas Müller:

Absolutely. Totally. In that sense, there is nothing else than ordinary living, whatever that is. It’s not that there is someone who knows what that means, but of course. Yeah.

Justin Allen:

Talking about it in this way then, and I guess maybe this is the case for you, is that when the apparent illusion of you being there was no longer there, then for me, hearing this and the way that we’ve been talking about it, it means that it must have been very un-shocking (unspectacular).

Andreas Müller:

Yes. One could almost say so. Yes. It was a bit unexpected. It is unexpected that there is nothing else to find and that there is no change. But as we said, on the other hand, it’s very natural and ordinary.

Justin Allen:

It also sounds like it might have been almost unclear or unobvious that there is a “no me” because it seems so natural and so...

Andreas Müller:

Yes, but this is completely ... so when the person dies, so to speak, this isn’t really what the focus is on. The ending point, so to speak, was not, “Oh, I died. Oh, finally, it happened. Oh, cool, the ‘I’ died. That’s it. That’s what I wanted.” No. There was just no seeking anymore and everything was totally fine.

Justin Allen:

Right. And that’s what I mean. And that event, it’s a little bit... I’m interested in dispelling the (myth)... I’m sure you’ve probably done this a lot in your talks and we also talked about this, but there’s not some grand, obvious, “Oh my God.” (Referring here to some kind of epiphany)

Andreas Müller:

Can be. For some people, there can be an event. What we are talking about is this fading away. So in the story, there can also be an event, but it would still be ordinary.

Justin Allen:

That’s what I mean. Even if there were an event, then that change would be, there’s “no one” there, so how could there be such an excitable moment? You know what I mean? Because there’d be no one there to even...

Andreas Müller:

Yes, this is not logical, this message is not logical.

Justin Allen: